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	<title>Comments on: Frog legs</title>
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	<description>Stronger plants, stronger science, and stronger communication.</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew Apel</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2293</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Apel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2293</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Anastasia,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There&#039;s new news on this topic. Turns out that predation by dragonfly nymphs produces the observed results.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;See, &quot;Studies offer new insights into causes of deformed frogs&quot;, MinnPost.com, Aug. 17, 2009,&lt;br/&gt;http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2009/08/17/10844/studies_offer_new_insights_into_causes_of_deformed_frogs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Interesting!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Andy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anastasia,</p>
<p>There&#8217;s new news on this topic. Turns out that predation by dragonfly nymphs produces the observed results.</p>
<p>See, &quot;Studies offer new insights into causes of deformed frogs&quot;, MinnPost.com, Aug. 17, 2009,<br /><a href="http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2009/08/17/10844/studies_offer_new_insights_into_causes_of_deformed_frogs" rel="nofollow">http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2009/08/17/10844/studies_offer_new_insights_into_causes_of_deformed_frogs</a></p>
<p>Interesting!</p>
<p>Andy.</p>
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		<title>By: Anastasia</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2292</link>
		<dc:creator>Anastasia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 03:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2292</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That&#039;s a good point mike. A lot of research only holds true in certain contexts. I hope they&#039;re working on some field work to test their hypothesis.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point mike. A lot of research only holds true in certain contexts. I hope they&#8217;re working on some field work to test their hypothesis.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2291</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 00:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2291</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The study by Ballengee and Sessions puts forward an interesting potential explanation for some types of frog deformities.  Unfortunately, their research fails to live up to the media hype; it does not solve the mystery of deformed frogs.  In the laboratory, they found that some dragonfly larvae will remove limbs of tadpoles.  However, Ballengee and Sessions did not actually test the predictions of the dragonfly hypothesis with rigorous data from the field.  For example, a clear prediction of their hypothesis is that as the frequency of dragonfly larvae in wetlands increases, the frequency of missing-limb deformities in those wetlands is also expected to increase.  Ballengee and Sessions did not test this prediction. Testing such predictions is a fundamental component of science. Until there are well-designed studies that examine the relationship between dragonfly density and frogs with missing limbs in nature, the relative importance of the role of predation in amphibian deformities will remain unknown.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The study by Ballengee and Sessions puts forward an interesting potential explanation for some types of frog deformities.  Unfortunately, their research fails to live up to the media hype; it does not solve the mystery of deformed frogs.  In the laboratory, they found that some dragonfly larvae will remove limbs of tadpoles.  However, Ballengee and Sessions did not actually test the predictions of the dragonfly hypothesis with rigorous data from the field.  For example, a clear prediction of their hypothesis is that as the frequency of dragonfly larvae in wetlands increases, the frequency of missing-limb deformities in those wetlands is also expected to increase.  Ballengee and Sessions did not test this prediction. Testing such predictions is a fundamental component of science. Until there are well-designed studies that examine the relationship between dragonfly density and frogs with missing limbs in nature, the relative importance of the role of predation in amphibian deformities will remain unknown.</p>
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		<title>By: Anastasia</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2290</link>
		<dc:creator>Anastasia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2290</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks, Cheshire. As far as I know, CCD has multiple causes which I too have covered in other posts... I just wanted to make the connection between the previously unknown cause of frog leg problems and previously unknown cause of CCD, and make the point that the causes are not at all mysterious or scary as some would have us believe.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Cheshire. As far as I know, CCD has multiple causes which I too have covered in other posts&#8230; I just wanted to make the connection between the previously unknown cause of frog leg problems and previously unknown cause of CCD, and make the point that the causes are not at all mysterious or scary as some would have us believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Apel</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2289</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Apel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2289</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Something else out there may be killing the frogs...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&quot;Noise from a local building site is being blamed for the death of around 270,000 American frogs at a nearby farm in south China, the China Daily reported on Tuesday.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&quot;According to the farm owner, Fu Yishin, the round-the-clock construction work killed his frogs one after another as every time there was a loud noise the frogs jumped.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;http://en.rian.ru/world/20090714/155523152.html&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something else out there may be killing the frogs&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Noise from a local building site is being blamed for the death of around 270,000 American frogs at a nearby farm in south China, the China Daily reported on Tuesday.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;According to the farm owner, Fu Yishin, the round-the-clock construction work killed his frogs one after another as every time there was a loud noise the frogs jumped.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.rian.ru/world/20090714/155523152.html" rel="nofollow">http://en.rian.ru/world/20090714/155523152.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Apel</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2284</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Apel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 05:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2284</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Cheshire,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;CCD is a modern artefact of mass media, but has actually been a crucial, critical, real-world problem that can be dated back to at least 1996 (in the US), if not earlier. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Bee-keepers, and the crops and farmers who depend upon them, are so desperate for a working theory of CCD that they&#039;re now proceeding on the basis of experimental banning. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That is to say, ban this, ban that, see if that works. This has been praised as the &quot;Precautionary Principle&quot; at work, but fact is, even this approach hasn&#039;t done any good.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Cheshire, if you have a novel theory of CCD that deserves a real test--and the world needs it--please describe it and I will post it at GM&lt;i&gt;O&lt;/i&gt;belus as a world challenge.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Andy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheshire,</p>
<p>CCD is a modern artefact of mass media, but has actually been a crucial, critical, real-world problem that can be dated back to at least 1996 (in the US), if not earlier. </p>
<p>Bee-keepers, and the crops and farmers who depend upon them, are so desperate for a working theory of CCD that they&#8217;re now proceeding on the basis of experimental banning. </p>
<p>That is to say, ban this, ban that, see if that works. This has been praised as the &#8220;Precautionary Principle&#8221; at work, but fact is, even this approach hasn&#8217;t done any good.</p>
<p>Cheshire, if you have a novel theory of CCD that deserves a real test&#8211;and the world needs it&#8211;please describe it and I will post it at GM<i>O</i>belus as a world challenge.</p>
<p>Andy.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheshire</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2282</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheshire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2282</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;From what I&#039;ve been told the most likely cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is a virus called the Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus. It&#039;s a virus that slowly paralyzes bees and it appears to be vectored by Varroa destructor, the mite that causes problems in honeybee colonies. The symptoms seem to fit the condition, and there&#039;s a very high correlation between CCD and detected IAPV. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;HOWEVER...it has not been conclusively proven that IAPV is the cause of CCD or if there are multiple factors working together. We&#039;re still in the &#039;WTF is going on&#039; stage.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Since you&#039;re at ISU, I&#039;d recommend talking to Mary Harris in the Entomology department because she studies bees. Not honeybees, but she knows her field very well and could point you in the right direction. You can contact me through my blog and I&#039;ll give you more info.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not to be a shameless self-promoter, but I kind of hit on IAPV in a recent post on beekeeping. I linked to a paper with more information about it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitstream/10113/9288/1/IND43991544.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitstream/10113/9288/1/IND43991544.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Harris will bee able to give you more information.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;:)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I&#8217;ve been told the most likely cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is a virus called the Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus. It&#8217;s a virus that slowly paralyzes bees and it appears to be vectored by Varroa destructor, the mite that causes problems in honeybee colonies. The symptoms seem to fit the condition, and there&#8217;s a very high correlation between CCD and detected IAPV. </p>
<p>HOWEVER&#8230;it has not been conclusively proven that IAPV is the cause of CCD or if there are multiple factors working together. We&#8217;re still in the &#8216;WTF is going on&#8217; stage.</p>
<p>Since you&#8217;re at ISU, I&#8217;d recommend talking to Mary Harris in the Entomology department because she studies bees. Not honeybees, but she knows her field very well and could point you in the right direction. You can contact me through my blog and I&#8217;ll give you more info.</p>
<p>Not to be a shameless self-promoter, but I kind of hit on IAPV in a recent post on beekeeping. I linked to a paper with more information about it.</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitstream/10113/9288/1/IND43991544.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitstream/10113/9288/1/IND43991544.pdf</a></p>
<p>Harris will bee able to give you more information.</p>
<p> <img src='http://www.biofortified.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Apel</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2288</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Apel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2288</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Daedalus,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Unknown pathways cannot be detected by any means comprehensible to human science. Suspected pathways can be tested, but that requires an hypothesis as a starting-point. That is, a starting-point from some existing knowlege.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Perversely for you, but obvious to scientists, is that the only way &quot;unknown mechanisms&quot; can be tested is via the &quot;unknown test&quot;. Perhaps, some day, someone will develop a comprehensive test to determine the effects which ensue via unknown causalities. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Personally, I view that possibility as so impossible as to render further speculation as far beyond the scope of the genre known as science fiction. To be kind, I will say, your suggestion is so far beyond any credible conception of human science that it must relegated to the domain of nonsense -- until, of course, you reveal your unknown test, which reliably detects the unknown pathways which lead to certain results.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What I say about gut flora is not an &quot;hypothesis&quot;. It works, and that is why the antibiotics are used in animal feed. You might envision the availability of food to farm animals as the &quot;limiting factor&quot;, but the fact is, what&#039;s eaten is only relevant to the extent that the nutrition is *bioavailable*. If gut bacteria are consuming nutrition to their own advantage, thereby depriving the animal, you don&#039;t want those critters in your gut.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or, in the gut of the cattle you feed in order to feed... and, so forth.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As for your weak defense of biofilms, the best you can say is that some multicellular organisms, such as lobsters, manage to keep them at bay.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Many thanks. I, personally, and on behalf of many other friendly organisms, are thankful that we have developed internal defenses against what humans describe as &lt;i&gt;slime&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Andy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daedalus,</p>
<p>Unknown pathways cannot be detected by any means comprehensible to human science. Suspected pathways can be tested, but that requires an hypothesis as a starting-point. That is, a starting-point from some existing knowlege.</p>
<p>Perversely for you, but obvious to scientists, is that the only way &#8220;unknown mechanisms&#8221; can be tested is via the &#8220;unknown test&#8221;. Perhaps, some day, someone will develop a comprehensive test to determine the effects which ensue via unknown causalities. </p>
<p>Personally, I view that possibility as so impossible as to render further speculation as far beyond the scope of the genre known as science fiction. To be kind, I will say, your suggestion is so far beyond any credible conception of human science that it must relegated to the domain of nonsense &#8212; until, of course, you reveal your unknown test, which reliably detects the unknown pathways which lead to certain results.</p>
<p>What I say about gut flora is not an &#8220;hypothesis&#8221;. It works, and that is why the antibiotics are used in animal feed. You might envision the availability of food to farm animals as the &#8220;limiting factor&#8221;, but the fact is, what&#8217;s eaten is only relevant to the extent that the nutrition is *bioavailable*. If gut bacteria are consuming nutrition to their own advantage, thereby depriving the animal, you don&#8217;t want those critters in your gut.</p>
<p>Or, in the gut of the cattle you feed in order to feed&#8230; and, so forth.</p>
<p>As for your weak defense of biofilms, the best you can say is that some multicellular organisms, such as lobsters, manage to keep them at bay.</p>
<p>Many thanks. I, personally, and on behalf of many other friendly organisms, are thankful that we have developed internal defenses against what humans describe as <i>slime</i>.</p>
<p>Andy.</p>
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		<title>By: daedalus2u</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2287</link>
		<dc:creator>daedalus2u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2287</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sorry Andy, you really don’t know what you are talking about.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Unknown mechanisms can be tested.  After they are tested they are not unknown.  Every pathway that is now known was at one time unknown.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The mechanism(s) by which antibiotics increase growth rate, accelerate sexual maturity and increase feed efficiency remain unknown.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/2/175&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/2/175&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Your hypothesis that it is due to selection for more efficient gut flora is non-physiologic.  Why would more efficient gut flora not result in greater bacterial growth?  In any case farm animals are fed ad lib, they can always eat more to increase growth, so food is not the limiting factor in growth rate.  Animals can increase food consumption rate and increase conversion to biomass (as during lactation), so digestion capacity is not limiting.  How does that affect the rate of sexual maturity?  Only via endocrine disruption.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Only biofilms containing pathogens can cause disease.  A biofilm that does not contain pathogens cannot cause disease.  There are no reports of an “infection” being caused by ammonia oxidizing bacteria.  Ammonia oxidizing bacteria do form biofilms on the surfaces of organisms such as lobsters.  They form biofilms on other organisms too.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Andy, you really don’t know what you are talking about.  </p>
<p>Unknown mechanisms can be tested.  After they are tested they are not unknown.  Every pathway that is now known was at one time unknown.  </p>
<p>The mechanism(s) by which antibiotics increase growth rate, accelerate sexual maturity and increase feed efficiency remain unknown.</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/2/175" rel="nofollow">http://cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/2/175</a></p>
<p>Your hypothesis that it is due to selection for more efficient gut flora is non-physiologic.  Why would more efficient gut flora not result in greater bacterial growth?  In any case farm animals are fed ad lib, they can always eat more to increase growth, so food is not the limiting factor in growth rate.  Animals can increase food consumption rate and increase conversion to biomass (as during lactation), so digestion capacity is not limiting.  How does that affect the rate of sexual maturity?  Only via endocrine disruption.  </p>
<p>Only biofilms containing pathogens can cause disease.  A biofilm that does not contain pathogens cannot cause disease.  There are no reports of an “infection” being caused by ammonia oxidizing bacteria.  Ammonia oxidizing bacteria do form biofilms on the surfaces of organisms such as lobsters.  They form biofilms on other organisms too.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Apel</title>
		<link>http://www.biofortified.org/2009/06/frog-legs/#comment-2286</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Apel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sandbox.geneticmaize.com/?p=79#comment-2286</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Daedalus,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ll answer your points in order. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The effects via unknown pathways are not detectable by any method known to science, because unknowns cannot be tested. The vast majority of unknown pathways will remain unknown forever, because the vast majority of them simply do not exist.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The mechanism by which giving antibiotics to farm animals causes them to grow larger, faster, is that the antibiotics select in favor of the digestive flora in the gut which convert feed more efficiently. More efficient flora = better feed conversion = faster weight gain. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Disruption of bacterial biofilms is crucial to the health of higher organisms. Lower populations of unicellular organisms can be beneficial, such as in the digestion of food. At higher populations, at the point where the unicellular organisms form a biofilm on, or in, the body or plant, the cells in the biofilm actually begin cooperating to ensure the biofilm&#039;s survival. By up-or downregulating specific gene sequences, they engage in specialized functions within the biofilm--making the infection far more devastating. Since bacteria, even at this level of organization, are fundamentally stupid, this cooperation--which means competing with the host organism, or even digesting its tissues, can very quickly lead to the death of the host organism. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Basically, a plant or animal with a biofilm in or on it is either dead, or dying.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are beneficial biofilms, such as in industrial processes involving bioreactors, or in the environment, where they perform what are loosely called &quot;ecosystem services&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daedalus,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll answer your points in order. </p>
<p>The effects via unknown pathways are not detectable by any method known to science, because unknowns cannot be tested. The vast majority of unknown pathways will remain unknown forever, because the vast majority of them simply do not exist.</p>
<p>The mechanism by which giving antibiotics to farm animals causes them to grow larger, faster, is that the antibiotics select in favor of the digestive flora in the gut which convert feed more efficiently. More efficient flora = better feed conversion = faster weight gain. </p>
<p>Disruption of bacterial biofilms is crucial to the health of higher organisms. Lower populations of unicellular organisms can be beneficial, such as in the digestion of food. At higher populations, at the point where the unicellular organisms form a biofilm on, or in, the body or plant, the cells in the biofilm actually begin cooperating to ensure the biofilm&#8217;s survival. By up-or downregulating specific gene sequences, they engage in specialized functions within the biofilm&#8211;making the infection far more devastating. Since bacteria, even at this level of organization, are fundamentally stupid, this cooperation&#8211;which means competing with the host organism, or even digesting its tissues, can very quickly lead to the death of the host organism. </p>
<p>Basically, a plant or animal with a biofilm in or on it is either dead, or dying.</p>
<p>There are beneficial biofilms, such as in industrial processes involving bioreactors, or in the environment, where they perform what are loosely called &#8220;ecosystem services&#8221;.</p>
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